Atlantis - Expanding Earth - Earth's Gravity - Redshift

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Re: Atlantis - Expanding Earth - Earth's Gravity - Redshift

Postby John » Mon 12 Sep 2016 1:13 pm

Thank you "bsbray" for your interest and comments. There is a lot of conflicting information. mostly guess work, as to events some 10,000 and more BC. While it is unlikely that I can add anything confirmatory, I have more ideas and intend to add to the Atlantis scenario a.s.a.p.
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What Did Our Ancestors Do?

Postby John » Thu 15 Sep 2016 5:41 pm

It strikes me as very odd that the idea that human kind, having gained the benefit of an expanded understanding facility, the Cortex by at least 50,000 BC, and would have benefited from its slowly increasing usability for about 200,000 thousand years before gaining the full Monte, should have stumbled around getting nowhere very fast until an apparently sudden cultural leap forward around 12,000 BC. This has to be just about the most unlikely of scenarios!

The followers of the Saturn Dwarf star theory, might say that being shrouded by an impenetrable cloud that obscured the heavens’ gave no scope for the discoveries that became possible with the advent of the Solar System - this is an understandable criterion, but … It shuts so many doors.

It is my preferred opinion that, even in those circumstances, human need and ingenuity would simply have faced a more difficult challenge. In all history, of every kind, there is no claim that there was a time of no day and no night. We have always had ten toes and ten fingers, so the ‘idea’ of a number amounting to twenty was inescapable! This being so, useful and usable elements of time and arithmetic was endemic!

Can we believe that, say, having made a suitable holder (cup) from mud, man was too stupid to realise that he had at hand (!) a form of clock, needing only a hole and some sand. Assuming, if only for the sake of discussion, that seasons (of some kind) have always been in man’s life – the very cycle of life, even that life of millions of years earlier, has depended on the seasons (a Spring and an Autumn perhaps) for its evolution. These seasons could have been numbered in days for a start. Man (anywhere) would have wanted to note when edible fruits might become available. He would see the signs and plan his time, as do even apes and monkeys.

So, I reject the idea that we made no notable progress in all those, possibly a hundred or more thousands of years. Physical evidence of such would, in our much later age, be but a daydream. I cannot accept that all that we know that ancient man could handle, has evolved only after the acquisition of the Solar System, that is for sure. If that transposition did in fact happen, it would, of course, have spurred man on. So, at this point, Homo Sapiens is in full bloom, equal in mental ability to ourselves. No-one seriously disputes this.

BUT – All researchers (well almost all) denigrate mankind by consigning him to, at the very least, 40,000 latter day years of no notable progress. Patent nonsense. Those of us enlightened by the Catastrophic approach to Earth history, know better. We all know better because we know that humanity has experienced near extermination on many occasions and recovered. It is an unrecorded history. This all takes a very long time. Many catastrophe’s are recorded as disturbances in the rock structure, but leave us with unanswered questions.

The emphasis in human history is on mobility: this is why when seeking a ready source of food and -before the advent of agriculture - man needed the already available, relatively easy prey. So, I think, he moved to the seaside! There is a good deal of speculation that we evolved from the sea anyway, so mayhap, it’s in the blood. Having found suitable fishing grounds his society soon expanded.

Unfortunately this seaside paradise meant that natural disasters could sweep him and his society into the sea, with few, if any survivors and virtually no trace of his stay there.

After a bit, it would have become obvious that coastal areas, long term, harbingered extreme dangers. The ‘sideline’ of farming inland would have already been started by non-fishermen and had perhaps, soon gained in estimation and long term advantage. It was shown to be, overall, more advantageous and more reliable than fishing. At least some avenue of escape, perhaps to higher land, could be made before the dreaded, known and expected, tsunami could cover the distance to their inland settlements.

Times of famine would have, again, left little but the devastations of time when critical levels were breached. A temporary return to fishing and the seaside may have been part of the story. But, nothing could save them from earthquake or volcano wheresoever they lived. Decimating experiences, like the pyroclastic cloud that can reach speeds of 450 mph would wipe out all in its path, making matchwood of the their homes in seconds, leaving no discoverable remains, especially after the passage of several thousands of years. Others, elsewhere, survived.

Nonetheless, what may lie over the hill is one of the more exciting of our imaginings. It will drive us, even to extreme lengths, to seek and see. We just must find out. So, presumably, the young would leave home and go a-wandering. Home had enriched and established animal husbandry and produced a few tools, plus harnessing the Ox to draw the plough. All obvious, no stretch called for here.

So ,what was to stop them winding up on a land, a huge island, which, with its environs made passage to the Americas simply a long stroll with short boat trips. If it existed – nothing! I think there is much in mythology and the record to say that it did. Basking in sunshine and rich in arable land, these adventurers would quickly build their societies and readily import their fauna and flora, if it wasn’t already there! It is now known that the art of sea-faring was well established and widely used.

However, the old enemy catastrophe returns and perhaps quite soon the land is submerged and all is lost. Eventually, with re-emergence it all happens again – and again! The old priest Pateneit referred to several ups and downs in our human recollection of the long ago. This could easily mean that that these ‘Atlanteans’, being so favoured, learned, (aided by elephants – handy tractors!) skills of archaeology that were later used by the Aztecs and Egyptians. This thought suggests the possibility that elephants were imported to raise Stonehenge. I know no elephant remains have surfaced, but it strikes me as more likely than loading boats (how) with potentially fatal results – and – if there was a landbridge and Atlanteans were a present force, why not elephants? There are so many questions.

In the final (latest) submergence of the land bridge it seem quite probable that already established émigré Atlanteans became what we know as the Beaker People. They already knew of bronze – how, if not from Atlantis? What of the body of the “Amesbury Archer” Late Neolithic, 2400–2200BC. Found near Stonehenge, the burial is over 4000 years old. It is one of the earliest bell Beaker style graves in Britain. Might he be an Atlantean, a member of the Beaker people, and might he have died – before or during the erection of Stonehenge and owned elephants?

The dating of these ‘events’, barring some ‘discovery’ that settles the matter, must rely on such related ‘history’ as we have. The most reliable appear to be those maintained in world-wide myth and custom. There are any number of these from all around the eastern borders of the Atlantic. Among these are Welsh and Irish as well as Mediterranean sources. Their essential thread gives what I believe is an overwhelming endorsement of the idea of an Atlantic based power and the spread of its influence.

Their varied stories indicate a period at least prior to 10,000 BC. The existence of a large area of land, or land and islands, that provided access to the Americas, must then have existed as I have suggested.

Such a land, climatically delightful, and probably well stuffed with goodies, as was the USA until exploited to near ruin. These riches would allow the rapid growth of an advanced culture, relatively unafflicted by outside threat, as the Mediterranean peoples were mostly engaged with itinerant savages from the north and Persia’s rise in the east. Those in the west, too few, with much else to do.+

Pateneit, the ancient priest of Sais, told Solon (640 – 558 BC) that he knew about the American Continent, (he apparently described it as an island of sorts) let alone Atlantis! He ‘knew’ that the land bridge that housed Atlantis, had risen and fallen ‘several times’. If, as I do, you believe this is a most likely scenario (I’m a catastrophist!) then inevitably more than just a few thousand years of history must have been in the hands of the Egyptian’s.

If so, there would without a doubt, have been inscriptions, written history and vocally inherited records. The old priest refers to their existence in no uncertain manner. As these would have been extant at the time of Solon’s visit, for the priest to lie would have been the height of folly, probably punishable by death for defaming Egyptian history. At this time Sais was teeming with Greeks who had also probably heard at least part of the story and would have seen the inscriptions.

Of course, we were not there and cannot be certain beyond a doubt (yet), but the politics that control us controlled them - even more closely, so this I think must be a true account of that time.

However, truth does not necessarily entail detailed accuracy. For me personally, there is a major uncertainty. Where was Plato? How did he learn the story? Probably from Critias or Socrates when he Plato was himself but a youth. While the time defined as 9600 BC is affirmed with great emphasis, it would have gained added importance by its reference distant time, before Greek history had been recorded. Indeed a momentous point in time. But - this very point, handed down through many years in remembrance, may be its Achilles heel! That date, ascribed to the founding of Athens, became a key factor in cementing Athens and Sais historically. Perhaps a confusion arose, to the effect that perhaps that date, years before Athens became a power, relates to the first awareness of the Atlantean Empire rather than its demise.

At that particular time Athens could not have posed a threat – it had barely begun! I can nowhere find a source that dates the founding of Atlantis. Adding to the confusion, it may be that cities such as Atlantis may have appeared and disappeared several times on the Atlantic escalator! I fear that even today, tracing timelines presents a confusing picture. Any authoritative help will be appreciated**.

The apparent several Earth inversions (**particularly here!) would obviously play a devastating role in an area of such subsidence and violent volcanic capacity, bounded as it was by a vast ocean.

Allowing for time and distance, on foot for the troops anyway – it could have been a very long time indeed before Atlantis reached a peak and was corrupted by internal problems, events that fore-shadow the fall of Rome. Meanwhile, the slow advance of Athenian Society would eventually arm it with the strength to challenge and perhaps defeat their enemy.

Then – calamity. The ‘Island of Atlantis’ (very possibly sited on Tore, a now an undersea volcanic seamount, situated about two hundred miles west of Lisbon), as posited by Spence in his “Roots of Cataclysm” pp 101-105) is blown apart and the whole landmass sinks below sea level. It is of note that this super volcanic eruption is near a line that extends to the Yellowstone National Park caldera which – they say – is already overdue – and may cause a lot of N. America to disappear overnight.

At 200 miles distance the coasts of Iberia and N. Africa (Britain et al) would have been seriously affected and there is evidence that the present coastlines follow the line of adjacent land fall. This – putative – super volcano is dated at 1640 BC ± and its fallout has been confused with the later Thera 1540 BC eruption that largely destroyed Santorini.

If then, we put the demise event as circa 1640 BC, this is still some 1100 years before Solon hears the story. A long time in which much can be lost, particularly in the subsequent, nearby Thera event.

This suggests that the Atlantean history encompasses a period from at least 9,600 BC, as it pre-dates Athens, to the eruption of 1,640 BC. Its disappearance would have left its imperial tentacles ‘hanging loose’ and those ‘survivors’, principally by then, new Europeans, may turn out to be what are now known as the ‘Beaker’ people.

The following has been ‘lifted’ from the internet:
“Although different researchers have located Atlantis just about everywhere on the face of the earth, Plato, in his Timaeus gives several distinctive indications of its true location.
1. "This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean." This gives the general location.
2. Plato also describes Atlantis as "an island (nesos) situated in front of (pro) the straits which are by you called the pillars of Heracles." The Greek word pro can be translated "before," or "in front of". (Some translators prefer to translate pro as "facing" or "opposite".)
3. Plato says both the island and the ocean were named after Atlas, the firstborn of Poseidon and Cleito. Even Herodotus, a hundred years before Plato, calls the sea outside the Pillars of Heracles the "Atlantis Sea". (History, Book I)
4. Plato describes the Mediterranean Sea which is "within the Straits of Heracles" as "only a harbour, having a narrow entrance," but the other sea (outside the Straits) as a "real sea".
5. Finally, Plato describes Atlantis as "the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent [America?] which surrounds the true ocean [the Atlantic]." Atlantis was situated just outside Gibraltar in the Atlantic Ocean—I find it difficult to interpret any other way”. Sadly this author appears to be anonymous.

I am now engaged upon something of a treatise, intended to relate the essence of the Atlantis saga in a manner that can be readily followed by such as myself who find it frustrating to be told of this era, age, or that ‘ioscene, without any reference to its place in time, X000 BC for example. I like a timeline as it seems to help me put things together. Those deeply engaged in these scenarios need no help with this but I am fed up with having to continually check back on the internet before I can follow the story.
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Charting Human History

Postby John » Sat 08 Oct 2016 11:56 pm

My present overriding interest is in ancient human history and how we have spread worldwide. So, I have just re-read, with a new interest, the posts re: Biblical numbers and the chronology of the Bible, plus other posts and internet stuff. While I have never been 'captured' by chronological argument and discussion, my thinking was provoked by the very difficulties these posts are trying to resolve. Like the contributors, I feel that these problems need resolution because such resolution would almost certainly resolve other, possibly more important, critical issues in 'understanding'. My first point is that in my opinion, the Bible, as an historical document, stands very high in my estimation.

The ‘story tellers’ were, whatever their personal failings, devoted to the belief in the ‘one God’. Whilst I am not religious, it seems inescapable to me that these story tellers, sages, writers or whatever, were themselves genuinely devoted to their God. Surely this means, bearing in mind that God ‘knows everything’, that to deliberately lie or mislead in their recording of the ‘Word’, or the history of works of God, would be unforgivable.

So, for my money, I have great faith in their record. Of course, human frailty besets us all and so we must examine their record with a critical eye. Nonetheless, I share the feelings of those who look to this work and the works of Jewish history, as fairly closely recording actual events.

This being said, correlation is proving difficult! I probably won’t be saying anything new when I maintain that the only valid correlation must be when two or more such respected histories detail the same (similar) catastrophic event. When such a match is made, (irrespective of its alleged date), the histories are in alignment (at least to some degree). The problem however remains unsolved - what was the real date?

To establish this, it is necessary to range through myths with world-wide similarity, particularly Chinese, Indian, Japanese and the Americas. In this quest, probably the most useful will be those where Earth upheaval has been least!

Are there such places? Do they harbour ancient civilisations? The history and enquiry associated with the Atlantis saga, suggests strongly that much is overlooked in the mistaken belief that ‘history’ i.e. civilisation, started around 5000 y.a.

Referring back to Atlantis (and assuming its verity!), Athens was founded c.9600BC. No-one. I think, would believe that this event was achieved without an already extant body of knowledge, particularly mathematical (you cannot build serious monuments or even ordinary buildings, meant to last, without very important appreciations of stresses etc. - and boy oh boy! Did they know about stresses - earthquakes etc. As of course did everyone else. And - very influential in this - Atlantis must be even older!

Even more firmly based is the Egyptian heritage. They had recorded the building of Sais (by the Greeks) a thousand years after Athens! The info was literally chiselled into their temple columns – and seen by thousands of Greeks.

I consider this to be unequivocal proof of both events. If this is so, then Atlantis represents the earliest ‘recorded’ civilisation in the ‘West’.

But – Pateneit told Solon that the land concerned had risen and fallen several times in human memory! For that knowledge to be passed down … Need I say more?

So, on this ‘land’ of ‘Atlantia’ (a paradise above water) several earlier civilisations may have flourished. I suggest that there had to be those communities to provide the ‘explorers’ who inhabited the Americas (heaven knows how many times) when the land bridge popped up for a few thousand years at a time.

The catastrophic ups and downs of this piece of the Earth would completely erase the record and totally destroy inter-continental communication each time for a thousand years or more. This would leave the European/African populations bereft of great centres of culture – gone without a trace. A very troubling phenomenon in a time of permanent uncertainty.

Among these casualties I suggest that there was a concomitant collapse in the Aegean, which ruined the early Athens and sank much surrounding land, leaving mountain tops we call the Aegean Islands. It seems probable that this disaster was linked to the Atlantis super volcano. This sank land for hundreds and hundreds of miles around, including the southern coasts of the UK, Ireland and the western coasts of Europe and Africa. It is further suggested that this collapse may have seen the birth of the West Indies in like manner.

Much of the information related to this is set out by Paul Dunbavin in his “The Atlantis Researches - The Earth’s Rotation in Mythology and
Prehistory”. His references are world-wide, presenting evidence of cataclysmic Earth disturbance, an important study yet to be seriously undertaken by the 'experts'. He strongly asserts that the underlying cause is the variable spins of the different strata that make up Mother Earth.

What this means, as I have previously stated in other posts, is that what passes for the 'official' geologic record and its interpretation, leaves much to be desired. The massively disturbing effects of colossal super volcanic eruption spreads for thousands of miles until halted (absorbed) by continental mass. This ‘Pillars of Hercules’ cataclysm fed through the Mediterranean, sank much land, wrecked Greece and created the Aegean Sea etc. Wreaking havoc to the Turkish coast, it may well have narrowed the entrance to the Black Sea, making of it an inland sea.

This shocking event took many, many lives, all over the shop, in islands, sunken territory and the coast line. Before a proper recovery could take place, the Thera volcano (within a century) brought more wide spread destruction and an era of intellectual darkness. Taken together they explain Solon’s ignorance.

Pateneit again! “O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you!” “ … for many generations, the survivors of that destruction died, leaving no written word … they directed their attention to the supply of their wants, and of them, they conversed, to the neglect of events that had happened in times long past … but - the earth has fallen away all round and sunk out of sight. The consequence is, that in comparison of what then was, there are remaining only the bones of the wasted body, as they may be called, as in the case of small islands…”

Similar effects have transformed areas of the Pacific and the East Indies in general. This has allowed the ‘colonisation’ of land as far away as Australia, thousands and thousands of years ago.. Indeed the whole scenario suggests that the earliest humans may well have first appeared in the (temporarily) more conducive ‘Atlantia’ and essentially only hominids were ‘expelled’ to Africa. If so we may never discover homo sapiens in seriously ancient African sites, or anywhere else.

The nearby mouth of the normally calm Mediterranean, with its adjacent land masses, would have beckoned with irresistible attraction and it may be that all human migration, east and west, will eventually, be tracked back to ‘Atlantia.

This ‘conception’ of human history is as new to me as it probably is to you, but seems far more likely than the South Africa jungle idea – to which , until now, I had been a devotee!

It may be particularly significant that (as far as I know) no hominid remains have been found beyond Africa, but humans (relatively speaking) abound. It also presents the direct contradiction of the initial processes of human racial diversity that fill the text books. Perhaps all the first humans were originally olive skinned and it was their migration into more torrid or colder zones that bred the changes we see in Africans, Asians and a whole variety of others.

Humankind had to start somewhere. If it was Atlantia it would explain why no very ancient human remains have been recovered from African soil. Never will be!

My principal purpose in setting out these ‘claims’ is, as always, to set the ball rolling and I look forward to reading your views. If you can advise me of other references that support this general idea I will be very much obliged.
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Re: Atlantis - Expanding Earth - Earth's Gravity - Redshift

Postby John » Fri 02 Dec 2016 6:20 pm

Sorry. I seem to have missed your query of 8-9-16. The dating referred to is, as you say 10,000 BC. 12,000 is from the present of course. The dating is simply according to Pateneit's story. I firmly believe that this date correctly refers to the founding of Athens and later Sais. Solon. (probably), seized upon this date as testifying to the extended history and glory of Athens, that extended well beyond his knowledge. This dating was consequently - not surprisingly - imbued with meaning it did not possess in further retelling. The final conflict would appear to have taken place in c.1643BC when the Atlantic and Mediterranean were devastated, and half Greece sank into the now Aegean Sea. The Athenian Empire was devastated and memories erased. As Pateneit said "Leaving only the unlettered and untaught." Barely 100 years later Thera blew and rounded off the job!

Somehow Athens resurfaced as an Empire, making possible - a full thousand years later - the meeting we know so well.
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